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[LTA music]

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Hi, good evening, Aida and Marcel.

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It’s a real pleasure to have you here
in this little talk, little interview.

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This interview will be about
a very interesting topic,

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not always discussed,

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which is:
why Hearing Aids are not enough.

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Why a person
with a hearing loss should use

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a Hearing Aid
and also use a real-time subtitler

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to attend an online meeting,
like this one, or a face-to-face meeting,

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in order to attend the meeting
on an equal basis.

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First of all, I’m asking you
to present yourself a little bit,

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so to introduce you.

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Aida?

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Ok, I will start, then.

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I am Aïda Regel Poulsen. I’m Danish.

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I have had my hearing loss
since I was 26 years old.

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So, I'm living with it growing up,
I think.

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I am also a teacher of the deaf,

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and a speech and hearing therapist
for school children.

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I’m also working
in this field professionally.

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Do you want to introduce yourself,
Marcel?

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Yes. Hello, Piero.
Nice to meet you.

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I’m Marcel Bobeldijk,
and I am from the Netherlands.

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I am hard of hearing since my birth.

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I wear hearing aids on both ears.

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On a volunteer-basis,

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I am the President of the European
Federation of Hard of Hearing People.

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I’m very happy to work together with you
and Aida in the LiveTextAccess project.

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Yeah, also for me
it’s a really nice pleasure

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to have you here
as EFHOH representatives.

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Should we start with the first question?

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Ok, so the first question is:

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why a person, like you,
who uses a Hearing Aid

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still should require from their company
to hire a real-time subtitler

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for attending an online meeting

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or a whatsoever meeting,
a face-to-face meeting,

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or in a normal situation,

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in order to attend that meeting
on an equal basis.

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So why essentially is
the Hearing Aid not enough?

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Ok, I’d like to start by giving
the answer.

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Let me start by saying that each
Hard of Hearing person is different.

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I, and Aida, will give an answer
from our personal perspective.

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Let me start by giving an example
at my work.

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When we have face-to-face meeting,

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and it is a one-to-one,
or there are 2 or 3 people,

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I only use my Hearing Aids.

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When the group is a little bit bigger,

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for example, 6, 8, 9, or 10 people,

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I also use a communication set

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with 4 mikes on the table.

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When the group is bigger
than 12 people,

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for example at a national meeting
that we have at our organization,

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we have a meeting with my colleagues

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from all over the countries
on a central place,

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then I have the speech-to-text support.

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The speech-to-text interpreter is
by me in the room.

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Most of the times, the speech-to-text
reporter is sitting near me.

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I have always, or most of the times,
the same speech-to-text interpreter

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because my organization agrees

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with working
with a text-to-speech interpreter.

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It is important that in most of the times
is the same person,

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because that was fine for my colleagues
to know the speech-to-text reporter,

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and also the speech-to-text reporter
to know my work situation, 

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and the language that we are talking
in the meeting,

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a lot of difficult words is coming
at different times.

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This makes the work of the speech-to-text
interpreter easier to do.

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Before the meeting, I send to
the speech-to-text interpreter the agenda

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and the minutes of the last meeting.

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And also all the documents
that we discuss in the meeting.

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So that the speech-to-text interpreter
before the meeting has the time,

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and need to prepare him or herself
do the job at the meeting.

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At the meeting,
we have at my work the rule

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that the speech-to-text interpreter says
when we have a coffee-break

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or the lunch break.

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Most of the times after an hour,
one and a half hour,

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the speech-to-text interpreter asks me:

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“Is it ok to have now the lunch break,
or the coffee break?”

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Sometimes, I say:
“Oh, wait 5 or 10 minutes

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so that the topic is finished
and then  we can have the break.”

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That has happened
in face-to-face work settings.

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Now in the Corona-time,

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we have a lot of online meetings

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and I have Hearing Aids
that can stream via Bluetooth

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in my iPad and phone
and that is different than before,

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because my former Hearing Aids
did not have the streaming connection

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and then it was needed to have
the speech-to-text interpreter.

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It depends on the possibilities
that you have on your Hearing Aids.

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And also of the quality
of the Hearing Aids.

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But also it is related to how heavy
the hearing loss is.

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I am a very heavy Hard of Hearing person,

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so that I need my Hearing Aids
in big meetings

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and the support of speech-to-text.

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Now this is communicated by the sound
that I receive on my Hearing Aids,

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I see the face of the speakers,
so that I can read the lips

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and I read the text.

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This is kind of multitasking and ladies,
as Aida, do that much better than I.

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Thank you, Marcel,
for your very exhaustive answer.

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It was very interesting.

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So, Aida,
I can tell it is very tiring for you,

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as Marcel was saying,

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to catch up the lip-reading,

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and the speech-to-text interpreter,
what he or she says.

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The use of Hearing Aids.

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It’s very tiring, isn’t it?

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Well, yes it is.

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And even though
you have a hearing loss

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and you get some audiological treatment
in Hearing Aids or Cochlear Implants,

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our hearing is just not so flexible.

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In meetings like this,
we are 3 participants here,

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but the quality of the sound is
very different from me to the two of you.

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In meetings whit more than 2 people,

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I actually appreciate
real-time subtitling.

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Also because the microphone settings
from other participants,

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I cannot rely on a good quality
from that.

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I’m very aware of myself
to use a boom microphone,

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so that I have the same distance
to the microphone all the time.

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But not everybody is aware of that.

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Voices vary a lot.

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My hearing loss is moderate. 

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Maybe in the high frequencies is going
to much severe.

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But I also have a discrimination loss,
which is something in the brain.

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I have twisting words around.

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If I mishear something,
and I act on that,

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I think I have understood.

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But then I might
in fact have misunderstood it.

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So I really appreciate
the real-time subtitling

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to do my tasks correctly.

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I’d like to add also
that in work situations,

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for planned meetings,

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it is no problem to book
a speech-to-text interpreter.

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But for sudden meetings,

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emergency meetings,
we cannot have that.

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So that could mean
that we cannot be in front at the work,

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because at the work that is where
many emergency meetings are.

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So we need to have
a better system for this.

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Also for my situation,

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it would be me booking
the speech-to-text interpreter,

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it would never be my employer.

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That is an extra task, to know when is
the meeting, and then to book somebody,

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and make sure that I have
the same interpreter because,

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as Marcel said,

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the interpreter would learn
the topics of my job

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and the technical expressions.

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And that is in fact a quality.

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Piero, it is good to know that I organize
with the speech-to-text interpreter

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that I use for my work settings,
and work meetings.

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In our system here in the Netherlands,

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it’s our responsibility to pay
the speech-to-text interpreter.

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Not my work organization is paying
the speech-to-text interpreter,

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but I pay
the speech-to-text interpreter.

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But it’s not about money.

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It is the coercion system that employees
with hearing loss have in the Netherlands.

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Then I have 3 options:

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I can use the sign language interpreter,

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you can use Dutch with sign interpreter,

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or I can use
the speech-to-text interpreter.

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There is no difference
between the 3 groups.

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But it’s really up to you?

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I mean, in terms of costs
and organization.

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Yes. And when I go to a meeting

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where I prefer to use an interpreter
with Dutch and sign,

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that is also possible.

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But in 99% of the times,

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I prefer to use the speech-to-text.

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What do you think is the added value

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for a speech-to-text interpreter,

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instead of this
plenty-of-errors subtitles

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we are having right now,
this automatic subtitles?

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The automatic speech recognition
that we are using just now

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it just doesn't learn
throughout an event.

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I was just saying to Marcel
earlier today that I attended

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a Cochlear Implant seminar
a couple of weeks ago,

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that lasted for 2 hours.

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There was some
automatic speech recognition in it,

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and for 2 hours it never learned
to write “Cochlear Implant”,

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which was the main topic.

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You kind of get frustrated
and it is an extra thing

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for my brain to have to overcome
and make the repairs.

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But it is very important
that in work settings the quality is high.

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Spelling mistakes are not
a big problem for me personally,

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but for me it is important
that the words are correct.

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I prefer that the interpreter types
exactly the same words that are said,

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not making a summary,
not writing simple words.

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In our work, we talk sometimes
with typical words,

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and when the interpreter makes
an “own” interpretation

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and translation in simply words,

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that confuses me.

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Because I hear something,
and I see or I read a different word.

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And then my brain says:
“Oh, what is happening to you!”

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That costs too much energy.

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You go out of concentration
and then you miss parts of the meeting.

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Yeah, of course.

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So, it’s really important to have
a verbatim interpretation,

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instead of a more sensatim one.

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Yes, and then it is also important

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that the interpreter says:

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“That is a difficult topic for me.”

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or “I have too limited knowledge
about this, the words are too difficult”.

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Then, it is better
that the interpreter says:

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“It is better
that you hire another person.”

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Because sometimes meetings are
in a very academical language.

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I think it is also important to know
that in Marcel’s system, which is Dutch,

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the speech-to-text interpreter
will always be prepared for the meeting,

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will ask for the agenda,
would ask for documents.

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I’m Danish, and I’ve not yet succeeded
to book an interpreter.

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That person would have to be prepared.

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Some have asked,
but it is not part of their salary

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to prepare themselves for the work.

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Whereas sign language interpreters
in Denmark,

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it is part of their salary
that they prepare themselves for the work.

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But it isn't the same when it is
a speech-to-text interpreter.

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They just come and hear,
and write what they hear.

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There is a difference
how this things are carried out

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throughout the entire world, actually.

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Yeah, and here you see the difference
between countries

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in the northwest of the European Union.

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We are not neighbor countries,
but we are very close to each other.

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so that you can maybe understand
that the situation in the map

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of the European Union,
or in Europe is different.

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In Spain, it is different
than in Sweden.

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Or in Norway, it is also different
than in Hungary, or in Romania,

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or in Italy.

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So it really depends on the country?

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Oh yes. And also
the automatic speech recognition,

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because that does not work
for us in Danish.

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You’re lucky because in Denmark
and also in the Netherlands

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you speak very good English.

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Thank you.

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But a lot of hard of hearing people
don't speak [English] very well,

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or don't like to speak English.

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So they prefer to do it in Danish
or in Dutch language.

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Then you see the automatic speech systems
are not very good at it

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in most other languages than in English.

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Of course.

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So, let's change a little bit of topic.

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Talking about the setting
of your work station, for example.

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What if a real-time subtitler,

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or a speech-to-text
interpreter is not provided?

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00:19:16,578 --> 00:19:21,116
What should be the setting
of your working station in such cases?

240
00:19:22,511 --> 00:19:25,003
It depends on the type of meeting,

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00:19:25,158 --> 00:19:30,440
but I have managed, about a year ago,
to have a meeting with 3 ladies

242
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,451
and they work in the same company.

243
00:19:32,885 --> 00:19:38,578
I asked them to be each in their room
and not to use the same computer

244
00:19:38,733 --> 00:19:41,251
because then the distance
to the microphone

245
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,437
would [not be] very much
from one to another.

246
00:19:44,228 --> 00:19:47,312
That was the start of the meeting.

247
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,048
I asked them to move apart
and this of course took a lot of time.

248
00:19:54,529 --> 00:19:59,442
In that way, sometimes
we may appear complicated to work with,

249
00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:05,027
because we are changing routines
and we seem to change the agenda.

250
00:20:05,845 --> 00:20:08,656
But I would not have been able to follow
what they were saying,

251
00:20:08,986 --> 00:20:11,812
if they hadn’t listen to me then.

252
00:20:12,805 --> 00:20:14,872
Because you were in the same room?

253
00:20:15,585 --> 00:20:17,500
Because they were in the same room.

254
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,229
They were in a different country.
Even I was in Denmark.

255
00:20:21,727 --> 00:20:23,897
They were down in Brussels.

256
00:20:26,719 --> 00:20:29,661
That was not about my computer,
my settings.

257
00:20:29,785 --> 00:20:32,504
I was telling them
how to do their settings.

258
00:20:33,249 --> 00:20:37,797
So, it really takes to chair
the meeting in a way,

259
00:20:37,921 --> 00:20:41,243
when in fact they had invited me
and they chaired the meeting.

260
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:42,989
Right.

261
00:20:46,416 --> 00:20:49,830
It is good to say that I prefer

262
00:20:49,985 --> 00:20:54,156
the speech-to-text interpreter
with me in the meeting,

263
00:20:54,326 --> 00:20:55,508
in the same room.

264
00:20:56,094 --> 00:21:00,248
I don't like so much working in remote,

265
00:21:00,806 --> 00:21:06,465
because different times
that I have do it via remote,

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00:21:06,884 --> 00:21:08,779
there were some technical problem.

267
00:21:09,275 --> 00:21:12,000
The Internet connection was not good,

268
00:21:12,389 --> 00:21:18,946
or the interpreter was not able
to hear everybody in the room.

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00:21:20,961 --> 00:21:22,750
Back to your question,

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00:21:23,122 --> 00:21:27,417
what I do when there is no
speech-to-text interpreter

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00:21:27,556 --> 00:21:29,425
and there is a big meeting,

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00:21:30,479 --> 00:21:34,432
I go sitting in a strategic place.

273
00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:39,344
The place where I can hear well
the speakers.

274
00:21:40,026 --> 00:21:43,624
Or I give him the table mike

275
00:21:44,058 --> 00:21:48,322
and then I have
an extra reveiver kind of loop.

276
00:21:48,585 --> 00:21:50,194
We call it “loop system”,

277
00:21:53,667 --> 00:21:57,279
so that I can hear
the presentation very well.

278
00:21:57,605 --> 00:22:02,316
But then I have the problem
that I don’t hear well

279
00:22:02,657 --> 00:22:04,766
the questions from the floor.

280
00:22:05,262 --> 00:22:11,084
Because, for example,
if it is a kind of theatre,

281
00:22:11,239 --> 00:22:13,921
so that people are sitting in lines,

282
00:22:15,332 --> 00:22:20,006
you need always to look back
over your shoulders

283
00:22:20,254 --> 00:22:21,836
to whom is speaking.

284
00:22:21,985 --> 00:22:24,651
And of course I am sitting
in the first line,

285
00:22:24,899 --> 00:22:28,077
so that I can see very well
the speaker.

286
00:22:30,386 --> 00:22:35,242
Sometimes people are speaking
in a dialect.

287
00:22:36,235 --> 00:22:39,653
The Netherlands is a small country,
but some people

288
00:22:39,891 --> 00:22:43,821
from the south or the north is speaking
in a dialect.

289
00:22:45,247 --> 00:22:47,020
Then, I cannot hear it.

290
00:22:47,268 --> 00:22:51,068
Then sometimes I ask my collogues:
“What is he saying?”

291
00:22:51,657 --> 00:22:56,152
and then sometimes the answer is:
“Oh, I could also not hear it.”

292
00:22:57,486 --> 00:23:01,652
So as a hard of hearing person,
you need to understand

293
00:23:01,776 --> 00:23:03,776
when you are in a big room,

294
00:23:04,381 --> 00:23:07,949
for example with 15
or 100 people,

295
00:23:08,383 --> 00:23:10,665
that people come out with questions.

296
00:23:10,820 --> 00:23:19,001
Even if you are in the first line,
you are not always very aware

297
00:23:19,342 --> 00:23:21,882
of the things that are being said.

298
00:23:22,471 --> 00:23:27,462
So, accent plays a big role
in this situation?

299
00:23:27,834 --> 00:23:32,584
And I think maybe that’s why
speech-to-text interpreter are important.

300
00:23:32,770 --> 00:23:39,182
So to have the correct words
that the person is saying,

301
00:23:39,616 --> 00:23:44,085
without the accent
that he or she might have.

302
00:23:45,294 --> 00:23:50,775
Where I have worked,
a center for hearing loss in Denmark,

303
00:23:51,798 --> 00:23:56,589
for staff meetings we have had
a very good loop system,

304
00:23:56,744 --> 00:24:03,362
with the head of the meeting
who was wearing a boom microphone.

305
00:24:03,486 --> 00:24:07,061
And then there would be
smaller microphones around the tables,

306
00:24:07,216 --> 00:24:10,845
so that all participants would pick up
a microphone and speak in that.

307
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,338
When that works, it is really fine.

308
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:18,898
And that also showed me
that I still have a good auditory memory,

309
00:24:19,053 --> 00:24:20,806
because that is also important,

310
00:24:22,201 --> 00:24:25,348
to be able to use what you have
of your hearing left.

311
00:24:26,650 --> 00:24:28,000
That can be done,

312
00:24:28,092 --> 00:24:32,976
but it takes maintaining
all these technical stuff.

313
00:24:33,286 --> 00:24:38,411
And you also rely
on good acoustics in the room,

314
00:24:38,566 --> 00:24:40,953
and that nothing else is disturbing
the sound.

315
00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:45,924
It is vulnerable,
but all technology is, I think.

316
00:24:46,389 --> 00:24:48,541
Every part is important, no?

317
00:24:49,006 --> 00:24:51,544
So, everything plays a role?

318
00:24:51,978 --> 00:24:52,919
Yeah, sure.

319
00:24:53,105 --> 00:24:56,905
Everything plays a role and even though
people have been using these microphones,

320
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,202
I may ask: “Sorry, what did you say?"

321
00:25:00,420 --> 00:25:02,704
"Could you switch on your microphone?”

322
00:25:02,890 --> 00:25:08,433
That's a special role, once again, that
that one person in the meeting

323
00:25:08,743 --> 00:25:12,303
all the time will state:
“Oh, you forgot so and so.”

324
00:25:12,706 --> 00:25:17,000
You have like special permission
to interrupt all the time

325
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,470
and change the topic in fact,
in the meeting,

326
00:25:19,749 --> 00:25:22,024
to “everything about microphones”,

327
00:25:22,737 --> 00:25:25,736
when we are talking about the budget
or something.

328
00:25:27,209 --> 00:25:34,449
[LTA music]

329
00:25:37,812 --> 00:25:40,245
LTA. LiveTextAccess.

330
00:25:40,763 --> 00:25:43,483
Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona.

331
00:25:44,413 --> 00:25:47,653
SDI - Internationale Hochschule.

332
00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:52,133
Scuola Superiore
per Mediatori Linguistici.

333
00:25:53,404 --> 00:25:55,063
ZDFDigital.

334
00:25:56,117 --> 00:25:59,357
The European Federation
of Hard of Hearing People - EFHOH.

335
00:26:00,628 --> 00:26:01,791
VELOTYPE.

336
00:26:02,504 --> 00:26:03,841
SUB-TI ACCESS.

337
00:26:05,028 --> 00:26:09,812
European Certification
and Qualification Association - ECQA.

338
00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:17,156
Co-funded by the Erasmus+ Programme
of the European Union.

339
00:26:19,234 --> 00:26:20,952
Erasmus+ Project:

340
00:26:21,452 --> 00:26:33,295
2018-1-DE01-KA203-004218.

341
00:26:34,407 --> 00:26:38,000
The information and views
set on this presentation

342
00:26:38,248 --> 00:26:40,093
are those of the authors

343
00:26:40,248 --> 00:26:43,767
and do not necessarily reflect
the official opinion

344
00:26:44,139 --> 00:26:45,445
of the European Union.

345
00:26:46,550 --> 00:26:50,229
Neither the European Union
institutions and bodies

346
00:26:50,725 --> 00:26:53,376
nor any person acting on their behalf

347
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,589
may be held responsible
for the use

348
00:26:56,930 --> 00:27:00,356
which may be made
of the information contained here.